Coffee, Theology, and Jesus

working out our messy faith over coffee

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The Condescending Christian

Condescension: (n)
1: voluntary descent from one’s rank or dignity in relations with an inferior
2: patronizing attitude or behavior

I think this is a word we are all familiar with.  A word we are all disgusted with? Perhaps.  A word we are all plagued with.  More likely.

I’ve been discussing Christianity with various friends recently and we have all come to the same conclusion: Christians are not very Christ-like.  It reminds me of the first time the label “Christians” was used in the scripture.  We have all heard this before, but in Acts 11:26 we see that “in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.”  The ironic thing is that this is an adjective and was not word that the believers called themselves but was a description that the pagans in Antioch gave them because they were following Christ.  The term was most likely a derogatory term given in mockery but the pagan world looked and saw people following Christ.  I wonder if they were being mocked because they actually acted like Him who they were attempting to follow.  Jesus said “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first” (John 15:18).  Contempt and mockery comes along with bearing the image of Christ.

Why do I say image instead of name?  “Christian” has become a nominal claim that holds no value but bearing the image of Christ is what we are called to do; be a reflection of Christ.  I believe a major problem in Christendom is that we are trying to be too “Christian-like” and forgetting to be “Christ-like.”

Now, this is not 100% true in every local church but it is a trend I am noticing more and more that the Church is shutting their “doors” tighter and tighter.  Obviously by doors I mean their hearts.  The attitude in local churches is that if you are on the inside you have been blessed and are a select group of “God’s elect” but if you are on the outside then you are not worth our thoughts.  It is interesting that Christ was never holed up in a building with the religious leaders of the day and reminiscing on how much better He was than the rest of the population (for He very well was MUCH better).  He was mocked for sitting and eating with sinners, for talking to a woman at the well, for calling children, for rescuing prostitutes, and loving the “scum.”  However, modern Christianity has turned their face from all of these ones that desperately need our love because we want to be “Christian-like.”  Christians don’t talk with non-Christians! Christians don’t get their hands dirty! Christians don’t sit and eat with sinners!  We want to stay in our “Christian boxes” and remind ourselves how great we are compared to all the sinners!  Paul knew nothing of this attitude when he writes to Timothy “The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I AM chief” (1:15).  Paul knew he never lost his nature as a sinner and it motivated him to reach other sinners!  I remember hearing Billy Graham tell an interviewer that the first step for a gospel preacher is to first love sinners for whom Christ died.  Gospel preaching becomes dry and lifeless when the motivation behind the message is not a sincere love for the lost!  Why are people leaving churches to never return?  Because Christians are not “Christ-like.”  Christ didn’t have to provide entertainment to get a following and He didn’t need fancy projectors and loud music.  He only needed His love for every single person.  What happened?  They CLUNG to Him.  The world knows very little of God’s love because we have been called to be the vessels of His love but instead we shut ourselves in and pat each other on the back for being such a good Christian while lives are being torn apart, people are hopeless, and the world is spiraling out of control.

When I was in California recently I was talking to my friend and he was sharing with me some of the various things he has gotten himself into out there.  Every other Wed he goes and gives out burgers and Bibles to homeless people in LA.  Two of the ones he has reached come to services regularly on Sunday because he takes time out of his day to just sit and talk with them and helps them in any way he can.  This was just one of the things he was into and I really looked up to him for that.  He surely isn’t being very “Christian-like” but he certainly is being very “Christ-like.”

I’m not sure when we lost sight of the fact that we are only sinners saved by grace but we have.  Let’s step out of the box of our condescension and back into the life of love for people around.  I don’t care what race, sexual orientation, religion, or social status our neighbor is, they should all be getting a glimpse at the love of Christ.  Would my neighbor be able to call me a follower of Christ or is it just a label I’ve slapped on myself because I go to a Christian church?  What about you?  Lord, change my heart and help me to love like Christ.




The Doubting Christian.

We all doubt.  Let’s face it, at one time in your life you’ve had your doubts about something.  It might have been a job you were hoping to get, a relationship or something else.  But everyone admits in their life that they’ve doubted.

But what happens when it’s your faith?  What happens when one night you have this thought “Am I really following the truth?  Is Jesus really the only way to heaven? What if he’s not? What if I’m the one following something that isn’t true”.  It is here that we come to grips with our biggest fear, the fear that what we have been believing isn’t true.  That it iss a lie.  What happens when we doubt our faith?  Are we even allowed to do that?

A couple months ago I was driving home from hanging out with some people in my local community.  I was alone, it was late, and the roads I take are pretty much in the middle of nowhere with just woods on both sides. I was thinking about how the night went, what we talked about and the life that I found myself living in.  One thing lead to another and I started thinking about my faith and if it was really one true faith.  If Jesus really was who he said he was, if God is what I’ve been taught to believe he is like.  All of the sudden I felt a very dark feeling coming over me.  I felt extremely alone and started to panic.  Thinking to myself “What if I’m going to Hell?”.  I never felt so alone in this moment.  I was breathing heavily, and I felt hopeless.  I did the only thing I knew to do, pray.  I just started to ask the Holy Spirit to give me comfort beyond my understanding.  He did.  I felt a peace come over me, one that I couldn’t explain, a comfort that calmed me, and reminded me of the life I’m living in truth.

Why do I tell this story?  Because the next morning I thought to myself “Do other Christians ever doubt? Are we allowed to doubt?”.  Yes, and Yes.  This really isn’t a very talked about subject. In fact, growing up I’ve only been told the opposite.  That I can have absolute assurance of salvation, that I can be 100% sure that I’m going to heaven one day when I die.  Rarely if ever did I hear the subject of doubt addressed.  And why address it? It’s terrifying.

But we must come face to face with doubt sometime in our life when it comes to the Christian faith.  We shouldn’t feel guilty either.  Remember Thomas?  The one who spent time with the physical Jesus?  What is he famous for? Doubting.  We get the expression “Doubting Thomas” from this guy.  Jesus was so merciful in his moment of doubt, asking Thomas to feel where the nails pierced.  He does this with us.  In our moments of doubt He tells us to look at his hands, to look at his feet, to see where the nails pierced.

It is ok to doubt.  I’ll say that again, it is ok to doubt.  In fact it is when we doubt that we come face to face with our deepest fears.  When this happens we remove all obstacles from God meeting with us directly where we are.  Sometimes we use things to get to God (Such as reading the Bible, or putting worship music on, or attending a Sunday morning service), and these things are not bad at all, but sometimes God wants to cut out the middle man and meet with us directly.  One on one, nothing in between us and Him.  When we have our moments of doubt, and we realize how vulnerable we are, the Holy Spirit comes in and minsters to us.  God, for a moment becomes so close that we can feel His heart beat.

I encourage you to be honest with yourself regarding the faith you believe in.  And don’t be afraid if you have doubts, because God is bigger than our doubts, He isn’t afraid of it, and He desires to have us draw near to Him when we are in the midst of it.


From Princess to Queen, What the World Desperately Needs.

Before I start, I have a few disclaimers.

1. This solely just my thoughts on the subject

2. This is a deep subject and I can’t address every aspect of it in one blog post

3. I’m not a woman, therefore I don’t know exactly how accurate I am.  Nevertheless, as a man, this is how I see things.

4.  For the sake of length, I will be generalizing, take it with a grain of salt.

A couple of days ago a few buddies of mine were hanging out after hours at a local coffee shop.  My friend is the manager so he opens it up for us after it closes down so we can sit around and talk.  Especially with life being so busy for so many of my friends, I find this to be a great time of catching up in each others lives.

During the conversation a friend brought up Disney and how he thinks it’s ruining young girls impressions of what being a woman is.  We talked for about an hour about the unrealistic fantasy a lot of these children movies present (such as Snow White) regarding finding true love in another person.  We all agreed that these movies can be great examples of Christ if you view Christ as the prince, and humanity as the princess, but as a child, it’s hard to see it that way.

During the night another friend brought up a point about how it seems like a lot of culture tells girls to be princesses, but never to grow up to be queens.  He went on to say that essentially we have a lot of grown up princesses.  Girls who never grew out of the princess mentality and now want the world handed to them on a silver platter.  That the view of their prince is someone who gives them everything they want whenever they want it, and when they don’t get it they kick and scream.  Spoiled was the word he used.

After we all disbanded and I went home I started thinking about that thought.  That girls are often taught to be the princesses, but not the queen.  It’s not that culture says that women shouldn’t be queens, they just don’t explain that as girls grow up they move from a princess to a queen.

Follow me here, I’m not saying that girls being taught that they are a princess is a bad thing.  I’m saying when they don’t see themselves as queens when they get older, we run in to a major problem.  Queens co-rule the kingdom with their king.  Queens can take on responsibility that a princess cannot.  Queens are secure in their position.  I can continue but you get the idea.

The problem occurs when girls are rarely taught that as they grow up, they begin to move from a princess to a queen. There’s an emotional maturity that begins to happen, and the view of themselves begins to shift from “Am I beautiful?” to “I am beautiful”.  Both parts are necessary .  This is a big complicated issue, one I won’t go in to here.


The result of this is staggering, we have a culture full of girls who are stuck mentally in princess mode.  Girls who either want the world handed to them, or girls who never were told how much they are loved by the person they needed it most.  Ultimately only Jesus can answer that question.  But when culture says to get that answer from a boyfriend, or a husband it sets up things for disaster

When we let culture dictate our image we come out with a very skewed image of how exactly life works.  Life is not happily ever after.  I’m not a pessimist I’m just trying to be realistic.  Your husband (or future husband) will fail you at some time because he is human.  The world does not revolve around shopping, your hair, or you.  (Don’t worry ladies, this is part 1, part 2  I get to lay in to us guys).  Queens are busy.  Busy doing work in the kingdom with their king, not sitting at home gossiping about what the other woman was wearing or what she said. A princess expects the world to be handed to her, a queen expects to change the world around her.

This is ultimately what I’m saying.  Girls need to  mature from the mindset of princess, to the mindset of queen.  Our world is in desperate need of women who know their worth, know their value, and are determined to be the beauty this world needs. Women and their power is extremely underrated.  Women breath life in to things.  Women not only physically birth life, they have the power to bring color to a black and white world.  When a women walks in the security of who she is the world changes around her.

This is part 1.  Part 2 will be from Prince to King.



The Political Lie Christians Eat Up, and Love to Eat Up.

Few disclaimers.

1. My beliefs in the risen Christ far surpass my allegiance to some political party.

3.  If you’re a hard headed conservative or liberal then you’ll most likely be offended.  I make no apologies for that.

4. If it’s long winded….oh well

This topic has been on my mind for probably the past year or so.  It’s an election year, politics are a hot button issue, and I know these are turbulent, difficult times in our country (as well as the rest of the world).  But there’s an epidemic that has eaten it’s way in to the Christian movement.  It’s an epidemic of making political enemies, coming against other people in the name of values, morality, and “christianity” and it needs to stop.

I am blown away, absolutely blown away that people who claim to be Christians, followers of Jesus, are so easily sucked in to the political rhetoric vacuum.  I see “christians” posting pictures putting down our president.  I hear “christians” saying that we need to go to war over seas.  I hear many “christians” say things regarding political ideologies that make me say “How would Christ EVER support that?”

It’s frustrating because I read some of the most basic commandements Christ taught us.  Loving our enemies, praying for those who persecute you, turning the other cheek, being keepers of the peace, etc etc.  Then I see people bashing our president, supporting wars that kill hundreds of people, and I hear people who make an effort to avoid R rated movies, talk about politicians like they aren’t even human.   It frustrates me so much that we allow ourselves who claim to be followers of Jesus, the person who died for the sins of humanity, to be so rude, so demeaning, and so spiteful to other people.

Christ tells us to pray for those who persecute us. The “persecution” (if you can call it that) we suffer here in the states is absolutely nothing.  It’s petty little pieces of trash compared to history and other parts of the world today.  Yet I wonder how many evangelicals are praying for our president right now? I wonder how many christians have hearts of love for our president and other politicians.  Because I’ll tell you what, I don’t see any of it and I get so discouraged because we love to fight, and we hate to love.  We hate to be humble, we hate to admit that sometimes we aren’t always right.

Christianity has been hijacked by political garbage.  it’s taken us away from our first love, from Christ.  Politics have taken us away from our purpose, which is to be agents of love to a broken, dying world.  Agents that are ushering the kingdom of God, not the kingdom of conservatism, and not the kingdom of liberalism.

It’s not going to stop until people start laying down verbal weapons and start coming to the table open and honest.  I have many, many friends that have many different ideologies, yet we are able to find common ground. Why? because I’m not trying to put them down, and they aren’t trying to put me down.  We do our best to understand the viewpoints we have of different issues then come together to find the best solution.  Sometimes, my view is wrong and needs to change.  Other times their view is wrong and they change.  It’s a give and take conversation.  This is the calling of Christians.  We are called to be unifiers not dividers.  And if the other “side” is dividing people, then rise above it and make every effort to unify people.

We have a very warped sense of morality in our Christian circles.  We put a huge emphasis on not saying bad words, we put a huge emphasis on not drinking, smoking, or watching really bad movies.  But the emphasis on loving all people? On praying for people we disagree with? On making every effort to be unifiers, peace keepers, and people who introduce people to Jesus?  Well thats’ all on the back burner.  When it comes to politics those things are not even on the back burner, they are not even in the kitchen! They are nowhere in sight.  Because when it comes to politics, so many Christians put their faith on the back burner and put rhetoric and talking points in the forefront.  I truly believe the heart of God breaks watching His children participate in the verbal food fight that runs our country instead of rising above it and unifying people together.
Here’s the bottom line.  We need to realize what our calling is as followers of Christ.  It is NOT to be conservative, liberal, or whatever other political affiliation we have.  It’s not wrong to hold views that tend to fall in those categories, it’s wrong when those views take the drivers seat in our ideologies and beliefs.  Our allegiance as Christ followers is to the Kingdom of God period! Our allegiance does not lie with a particular nation, it lies with the Kingdom that Christ says “is not of this world”.  We need to set our minds to the ideologies of Christ.

When we get to heaven God isn’t going to ask us if we were conservative or liberal.  He’s going to ask us did we love God, and did we love people.  Did we do the will of the Father or were we too wrapped up in some political jargon to notice what the will of the Father even was?


P.S everything I said regarding being keepers of the peace, loving our enemies, praying for those who persecute us etc.  Can all be found in the sermon on the Mount from the guy that you most likely claim to follow.  Don’t tell me you’re a follower of Christ and then ignore some of his most direct teachings.  I’m not saying any of us execute these teachings perfectly, but to completely ignore them isn’t following Christ. It’s making up your own religion and choosing the nice convient teachings and ignoring the ones that make you uncomfortable

The Grid of Philippians – Rob

Alright.  I’ll give you fair warning.  This one, if it affects you as it affected me, will hit you square between the eyes.  If not, well you were doing better than I was haha.  So just be prepared.

I was perusing Facebook the other day when I looked at the side bar on the right.  You know, the place where you can creeperishly see what your friends are all liking.  Well something popped up that grabbed my attention.  I will use the anonymous name of “Joe Smith” for the time being.  “Joe Smith and 25 other friends like Tosh.0.”

Now, perhaps I am out of touch with reality but from what I know about Daniel Tosh (I’ve never actually seen his show) is that he isn’t exactly one that jokes while upholding “Christian Values.”  From what I understand, Daniel Tosh tends to be somewhat sacrilegious and filthy in his commentary.  I have even heard from “secular friends” that his jokes are very dirty.  Being that I heard this, I figured it best not to spend my time watching his show.

But, when I saw Joe Smith and 25 other friends liked “Tosh.0” on Facebook I was pretty curious as to who liked it, and so clicked it to find out.  “Joe Smith” is a friend of mine that at one point stood for the same Christian values that I do, which peaked my curiosity even more.  As I clicked to see who the 25 other people were I was actually very surprised.  I would say 95% were “Christian.”  Now, don’t take this as me condemning anyone else or looking down on other people’s activities.  What I took out of this was that we, as Christians, may be letting the world influence us in far too many ways.  Somewhere along the lines it became ok to sit and laugh at sin and filth, to enjoy watching sin in movies, enjoy listening to sin in music, and joke about sin in conversation.  I have caught myself thinking on occasion “well this isn’t that bad” and accepting it as OK to watch/listen to/talk about.

We have often heard it said, “If Christ was in the room with you would you still watch it?”  Well guess what?  Christ IS in the room with me every time I go to watch a movie, listen to music, have a conversation, or tell a joke.  There is no “what if” there is “what now?”  I guess seeing how many Christians were ok with subjecting themselves to taking pleasure in sin really got to me.  How much sin am I ok with being leaked into my life?

Paul wrote to the local church in Philippi in Philippians 4:8,

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

What a contrast!  Now, I’ve heard the argument, “Yeah, but I don’t want to be a weirdo and Christ and his disciples sat and ate with sinners!”  This is correct, Christ did sit and eat with sinners.  But I guarantee that he did not partake in their sin, or laugh at it.  Paul and the disciples did not sit around with the other Christians and tell off-color jokes or watch Tosh.0.  The reason they were with sinners?  To preach the gospel.  What person wants to listen to a message “that will change your life” when the person telling it is no different than they are?  Not only are we taking away from the praise that Christ is worthy of, we are erasing the impact of the gospel.  What a tragedy.  Paul lays forth a grid through which we can pass EVERYTHING we do.  My job can be something that gives Christ praise because of the type of employee I am reflects my Savior.  How are my conversations with my co-workers?  Worthy of praise? Pure? Honorable? Lovely?  How about with other Christians?  True?  Kind of sounds like a possible stab at gossip.  Am I just always looking for more dirt? Are the things commendable that I talk about?  I am reminded of James 3:10,

From the same mouth come blessing and cursing.  My brothers, these things out not to be so.

How many of my recent activities have made it through the grid?  How will my planned activities make it through?  As Christians, we should always be evaluating where we are when it comes to the scripture, not the world.  Too often I have found myself saying “Ok, I will stay this far away from the world!”  Which sounds great except when I realize that the world is spiraling further and further from God.  The only distance I should be worried about is between me and God’s standard.  The world will continue to fall away and I would be wise to not fall away with it.  How much of the world am I letting into my life/mind/heart?  Usually, standing for God will make me the odd-man out.  Christ himself said in John 15:18,

If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me before it hated you.

Want a good indication of you effectiveness for God?  Does the world hate you?  I am not saying that when you go to school you should immediately have things thrown at you and have no friends.  People, in general, will highly respect a Christian who is living for Christ.  They are the nicest people! But the world, the system of thought, education, knowledge, and lifestyle that goes against God, should hate the Christian.  We all know what the Bible means when it says “world.”  Romans 12:1-2 says,

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.  Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

As a whole, Christians are far too conformed to this world and allow too much of the world into our lives.  I am guilty just as much as the next person.  Tim is hard on the Church but I would say it starts with the individuals in the Church.  We are allowing the world into our lives in small and large ways.  If we are to be effective communicators of the gospel then we have all got to take a step back and re examine what we let come into our minds, across our eyes and ears, and out our mouths.

Sin… Suffering… Savior – Rob

This is something that I have actually been tossing around in my mind for some time. I am no scholar and would love input on my thoughts as well. Perhaps I am in fact incorrect in my thinking.
These thoughts were originally brought about after multiple discussions I have had with some strong Calvinists. The “L” in the T.U.L.I.P. acronym most would know as “Limited atonement.” This would teach that Christ only died for the sins of the “elect.” Obviously if Christ only suffered for their sins then it would in fact be impossible for anyone else to be saved. I think this stems from a misunderstanding of sin, Christ, and the work of salvation.

Sin- at its core sin is the disobedience of the commandment of God. Some of the definitions:

  • Transgression: an overstepping of the law
  • Iniquity: an act inherently wrong
  • Error: a departure from right
  • Missing the Mark: a failure to meet the divine standard
  • Trespass: the intrusion of self-will into the sphere of divine authority
  • Lawlessness: spiritual anarchy
  • Unbelief: an insult to the divine veracity

Sin originated with Satan (Isaiah 14:12-14), entered the world through Adam (Romans 5:12), and is universal (except for only Christ).

Scofield gives a summary of sin as threefold: An act, the violation of obedience to the revealed will of God; a state, absence of righteousness; a nature, enmity toward God.

In the garden the commandment was to not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam, who up to his point had no sin, was given that choice and a free-will to obey or disregard the commandment of the Lord. When Adam chose to disobey, the entire human race fell as a result because he was the “head” of the created world. Now, Adam knew good and evil (which goes against the T of Total depravity). The sinful nature was born and plagues every human because of the fall of man. The result being seen in Romans 5:12. Sin is a problem which the human mind cannot fully comprehend. Sin has separated God from His creation and must have righteous judgment by the very nature of the God of eternity. A misunderstanding of the severity and depths of sin is the start of the misconstrued ideology behind the death of Christ. Sin has affected the entire creation, which will all be redeemed as seen in Revelations.

Christ- the divine, transcendent, eternal Son of God, who was manifested into a human body. A misconstrued idea of Christ would cause a huge error in the understanding of the death of Christ. I do not, and cannot, completely comprehend how God can become a man (hypostatic union), but it doesn’t change the fact that Christ was and is God. The transcendent nature of Christ is vital to begin to understand His death/suffering. How can there be an infinite payment of sin in a finite amount of time? Because of the transcendent nature of God. Outside of our realm and our understanding the God of the Bible dwells. That is the Christ of whom we read “took upon him the form of a man” and “God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh”. A transcendent, eternal, supernatural God in the body of a man.  I have found myself wondering about Hebrews 4:15 often; how Christ was “was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.”  I think the English language doesn’t do justice in times like this.  Temptation has the negative connotation about it.  I believe the word in Hebrews 4:15 would be better translated as “tried.”  Why are we tempted? Because our sinful nature is appealed by the sin surrounding us.  Ever notice that the moment you stop enjoying God like you should, you stop reading as much as you were, get lazy about your prayer life, and stop having good community with fellow Christians that sin is much more enticing?  I have! This is because the sinful nature inside of me is enticed by sin and when I am not battling that nature/desire it becomes stronger.  Was Christ then ever “tempted?”  I would say no, because He did not have a sinful nature that was enticed by sin.  He understood sin at the deepest level and was utterly disgusted by it.  However, He was tried by the same things we are.  For instance, women still walked in front of His eyes, those certain magazines were still on the shelf at the Wawa in Israel, and the internet was still full of those pages in 20 A.D.  This things all still were in front of Christ and “trying” Him but to no avail because He had no sinful nature to entice.  We are “tempted” to do wrong because our sinful nature desires to do wrong.  Now we can see that Christ not only had no sin; He was incapable of sinning.

Salvation- the payment of sin. May we first marvel at the plan which upholds the requirement of the punishment of sin while setting the offender free! “Who is a pardoning God like thee, or who has grace so rich and free?” As I understand it, one sin will never be unjustly punished twice. This would go against the character of God and the requirement of punishment. If Christ suffered for each sin as if God had a list and laid each one on Him, then we would be correct to assume that only certain people can be saved. However, I do not believe that is how the work of salvation was completed. When Christ suffered in those three dark hours there was an infinite payment to God that was sufficient to cover the entire judgment for sin. The moment of salvation is when I accept that the judgment Christ bore was for my personal sin against God. Therefore I could never tell an unsaved person “Christ died for your sins”. That would lead them to the conclusion that their sins are already paid for and there is no way they would have to pay for them again so they need not even have to believe. The work of salvation was an infinite and not “one-for-one substitution” redemption work. If the work was only sufficient for the elect then the non-elect would have an excuse for their unbelief in that “whosoever believeth” was not applicable because of the insufficiency of the atonement to cover their sin. This is what I see to be a huge misunderstanding of the work of salvation. Christ is an infinite being who paid the sufficient price to cover the full judgment of sin. However, the forgiveness offered is a gift and if the gift is not accepted than the work of salvation does not cover the sins of the rejecter and that individual will pay for their own sins as they did not come into the good of Christ’s sacrifice.

I pray that I was able to convey what I have been thinking about in some logical manner and am certainly open to any correction in my thinking.
Perhaps in the future I’ll more solidly lay out the views of Calvinism and Arminianism and explain why I think both are faulty 🙂  Not to say there aren’t true Christians who hold either of those doctrines (there certainly are as I fully believe there could be true Christians in ANY religion).

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